12518

2004-12-06T08:17:00.000-08:00

December 5, 2004

Why the FUCK would anyone do business with PayPal?
posted by NortonDC at 12:51 PM PST

Am I insane? How can anbody have a positive INTERNET FUCKING COMMERCE experience with an outfit whose primary purpose is facilitate the quick movement of money from point to point when it TAKES FUCKING WEEKS TO MOVE THE MONEY FROM POINT TO POINT??!?! WHAT. THE. FUCK!!?!

3-4 days to have their required fucktard confirmation number appear on the online statement of the credit card used to open the account.

2-3 BUSINESS days to have PAYPAL make two deposits that you have two report on to confirm a bank account WHEN THE ALREADY HAVE MY GODDAMN CREDIT CARD INFORMATION that is a more than sufficient source of moeny for anything involving them.

3-4 days to move money from the account to their holding pen.

11 Business days. 13 FUCKING CALENDAR DAYS. This isn't internet commerce, this is fucking Chinese water torture.

How canybody bear to deal this bullshit? Why would any business abuse their customers like this when the whole thing can done in 3 minutes with a credit card WHICH IS STILL FUCKING NEEDED FOR PAYPAL ANYWAY?!?!?
posted by NortonDC at 12:51 PM PST on December 5

Wow. I guess you've had a bad experience. I've been using Paypal for years, and I've never had a problem. I mostly use it for ebay transactions, so I guess the timing is less imporant for me. I use it because there isn't a good alternative. If I buy something on ebay, how else am I going to easily pay for it? The sellers generally don't accept credit cards and it's a major pain where I live to buy stamps and send a check. In any case, most sellers won't accept a check -- unless it's certified, which is another pain.
posted by grumblebee at 12:58 PM PST on December 5

I do. I've used that same system (receiving money sent to an email address), and it didn't take nearly that long for me. In fact, although I can't remember how long it took the first time, I was amazed at how fast it went.

You can always use some other firm that provides better service, such as..... um...... well.....
posted by Doohickie at 12:58 PM PST on December 5

*hands NortonDC a hot cup of chamomile tea, puts Bach on cd player, pats NortonDC's back*
posted by matteo at 12:59 PM PST on December 5

I think someone needs a hug.
posted by SPrintF at 1:00 PM PST on December 5

If even one new person here emulates this post I'm changing my name to buford pusser and pulling out the bat. Terrible use of AskMe.
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 1:00 PM PST on December 5

This is not a question; this is a rant. However justified it may be, it's inappropriate for this place.
posted by mcwetboy at 1:06 PM PST on December 5

This seems like a GYOBFW type post to me, but I'll bite.

People use Paypal largely for ebay. Since most people cannot accept credit cards as payment (at least, most regular people), they need a quick and easy way to transfer cash. And, for the most part, paypal works well after you get it all set up.
posted by graventy at 1:07 PM PST on December 5

Now you got me all worried about the item I'm selling...
posted by pepcorn at 1:09 PM PST on December 5

This is not RantMeFi.
posted by Tubes at 1:10 PM PST on December 5

I mostly use it for ebay transactions, so I guess the timing is less imporant for me.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO!

The problem is that it takes TWO FUCKING WEEKS to go from "Gee, I'd like to buy that," to "X dollars have been transferred to the recipient" when you're starting from scratch with eBay and PayPal. The two weeks are the torturous steps outlined above that it takes to establish a PayPal account, get money into it, and get the money to the recipient.

That rigamorole injects two weeks into a time-limited auction/buy-it-now process and depends on not one but TWO other well-established payment options (credit cards and electronic funds transfer) which are clearly capable of moving money fater than PayPal since PayPal rests atop them.

And stupidsexyFlanders, fuck off and take it to MetaTalk if you don't like it. You know where metacriticism belongs, and it ain't here.
posted by NortonDC at 1:11 PM PST on December 5

MeTa'd it has been.

And since your main question is 'Why the FUCK would anyone do business with PayPal?', what more of an answer were you looking for than 'ebay'.
posted by biffa at 1:15 PM PST on December 5

This is a rant, Norton, you're blowing off steam, not honestly looking for answers. Rant on your blog, not here.

But if you are: convenience. Once you're setup, you're setup. It provides an easy way for two people to exchange money, (fairly) securely.

I just setup my bank account on there a week ago, and it took... 2 business days for the deposits to show up, and 1 business day for the money to transfer.. I believe the days they list are maximums, otherwise they'd have people complaining. It's like "allow 6-8 weeks for delivery."
posted by gramcracker at 1:18 PM PST on December 5

the chamomile obviously didn't work, did it
posted by matteo at 1:18 PM PST on December 5

NortonDC, I know it's frustrating, but your complaints are really about two separate parts of the process: (1) obtaining an account with PayPal, and (2) completing a transaction with the new account. If the window for your transaction is so time-limited, wouldn't it make sense to be prepared ahead of time by completing step 1 before you actually needed to effectuate said transaction?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 1:18 PM PST on December 5

Banks charge hefty fees for opening a low-volume merchant account. Then they take a high percent of every transaction. You only get to worry about these factors if the bank actually approves you for a merchant account. If you indicate on your application that you are doing low volume internet business of any kind they are unlikely to want to talk to you at all, even if you have years of commercial banking experience with them.

Paypal does two things:

(1) It addresses fraudulent transactions that are much too small for a bank to carry about.
(2) It obfuscates your credit card or bank account details so the fraudsters can't just withdraw massive sums of money from your account.

PayPal is very good at (2) but only good enough at (1). If you can come up with a better solution to (1) than PayPal's, that scales to hundreds of millions of users then you have a multi-billion dollar business on your hands. The core difficulty here is that fraud will eat up a processing agent's profits, but over zealous fraud prevention will also eat up the processing agent's profits.

On Preview: It takes more than two weeks to setup a new credit card acount (since they have to mail you a card). Once you get past paypal's initial signup it tends to be fast and efficient.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:18 PM PST on December 5

I didn't realize PayPal was such an elaborate process before. Didn't PayPal get in trouble a while back for selling its customer's emails, or something like that? I thought there was a class action suit there somewhere.

And it is correct that complaints about the post don't belong in the post.
posted by onlyconnect at 1:22 PM PST on December 5

b1tr0t, the process I'm describing does not involve establishing a new credit card account, which is a separate "service" (shudder) that PayPal does offer.
posted by NortonDC at 1:26 PM PST on December 5

the chamomile obviously didn't work, did it

Nope, and I hope the Bach is a sloooow looping Sarabande and not a Prelude or an Allemande (or, god forbid, a Gigue). Them can be worse than speed and drive a man right nuts. :-)
posted by Cryptical Envelopment at 1:32 PM PST on December 5

Think of it kinda like having sex. You're supposed to take care of details like getting condoms or setting up your account beforehand. And the first time can be awkward and confusing, but after that it gets easier/better.
posted by TheIrreverend at 1:34 PM PST on December 5

Hey, would you really want an online service that connects directly to your bank account to be easily and speedily set up?

Your rant was about the setup, not the service.

For the small businessperson/independent artist, Paypal is a freakin' godsend. I now make over $1k monthly on sales of my bands' CD's, etc., up from ZERO in 1999.

I literally couldn't live without it now.
posted by Aquaman at 1:39 PM PST on December 5

monju_bosatsu, given that my eBay usage, at the imagined closure of this interminable current transaction, will be two transactions in roughly six years, I have a hard time understanding why I would entrust PayPal with the required two separate financial instruments of mine before absolutely necessary.

And to others, it did take 3 solid days for stage one of the process to complete, indicating the projected timing of the next two steps represents the stark reality, not an outside guess.
posted by NortonDC at 1:41 PM PST on December 5

Hey, would you really want an online service that connects directly to your bank account to be easily and speedily set up?

Isn't that why we have credit card transactions?
posted by NortonDC at 1:44 PM PST on December 5

but how do you REALLY feel?
posted by keep it tight at 1:51 PM PST on December 5

Well, obviously you're starting from scratch, no account, nothing, and just want to have this one thing done right now please now now did I mention right this instant NOW. I did all these steps on my paypal account some time ago and now find it quite easy to use on an ongoing basis. It is a bit of a hassle getting it all set up though. Hardly instant-on. I'm sorry that you are going through the setup at such a stressful time when you just plain need it done and over immediately so you can get your one need taken care of right NOW! As you've discovered, it doesn't work that way.
posted by scarabic at 1:56 PM PST on December 5

If you've ever tracked your credit card transactions online, or had a debit/check card linked to an account, you would see that an "instant charge" does not actually appear for approximately 2-3 days. This implies that it has nothing to do with Paypal as it's just the standard time of doing business. As Paypal has to wait for the transaction to complete, you have to wait also. That being said, Paypal does kind of suck.
posted by hindmost at 2:01 PM PST on December 5

Never had a problem with PayPal.

Obviously, YMMV.
posted by davidmsc at 2:04 PM PST on December 5

Maybe if you had some ideas on how PayPal could change, or offer alternative ideas on how PayPal is to address the issues leading to this slow initial process, mainly fraud, you would have a little more credibilty.
posted by orange clock at 2:08 PM PST on December 5

orange clock, which of my statements do you find incredible?
posted by NortonDC at 2:11 PM PST on December 5

Am I insane?

Yes, you are. Did that answer your question?

As people have already said, you're fuming over the setup procedure, which I think is pretty well described when you go through it. At least, it was for me. After that, transactions are instantaneous. You're essentially making an "application" for the service, and I don't think they've ever claimed that was instantaneous.
posted by Big Fat Tycoon at 2:12 PM PST on December 5

"Gee, I'd like to buy that," to "X dollars have been transferred to the recipient" when you're starting from scratch with eBay and PayPal.

If you solely want to make a purchase and the seller only takes PayPay, you don't even need a PayPay account. You can simply use a credit card.
posted by anathema at 2:20 PM PST on December 5

>>Am I insane?
>
>Yes, you are. Did that answer your question?

Not the question in the post.

>You're essentially making an "application" for the service

One "applies" in situations that test the trustworthyness of the applicant. There is no need for trust to flow from PayPal to the user since they get the money first. The trust has to flow from the user to PayPal, in the direction of the monetary flow.
posted by NortonDC at 2:22 PM PST on December 5

If you solely want to make a purchase and the seller only takes PayPay, you don't even need a PayPay account. You can simply use a credit card.

Please explain how. I did not see any way to do what you describe.
posted by NortonDC at 2:22 PM PST on December 5

Do not buy from some idiot that only takes PayPal. If you must use it, keep the purchase amounts small to lower the risk, tie it to a dedicated bank account with just enough money for your transactions and probably at a bank with which you have no other accounts. Some people on eBay who say they only take PayPal will take a cashier's check or US Postal service money order if you ask in advance, especially if you ask nicely and you have a good feedback record.

I also would be interested in how one could use a credit card without a PayPal account.
posted by caddis at 2:32 PM PST on December 5

Do not buy from some idiot that only takes PayPal.

Indeed.
posted by PrinceValium at 2:38 PM PST on December 5

Hmm, I just opened a PayPal account recently - to give #1 his $5.

Other than the nagging feeling that I had entered into a risky relationship with PayPal, the process was surpisingly fast.

I chose to get my chequings account hooked up with them, they credited, then debted a sub $1 sum within minutes of my request. I checked my account statement online, went back to PayPal, came to Metafilter, and signed up.

A few tens of minutes, max.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 2:39 PM PST on December 5

You don't seem to really have a question, but rather want to vent.

The truth is that you do not have to use Paypal. The seller will most likely take a cashiers check or money order. They may even take Bidpay. If the seller only takes Paypal, then buy from someone else. Why subject yourself to a system that you clearly have issues with? Unless you like being pissy.

Btw, I've been using Paypal for five years and never had a problem.
posted by Juicylicious at 2:44 PM PST on December 5

Do not buy from some idiot that only takes PayPal.

Idiot here!!!!!
posted by Juicylicious at 2:46 PM PST on December 5

Do you have to have a credit card in order to use paypal?
posted by konolia at 2:49 PM PST on December 5

There is no need for trust to flow from PayPal to the user since they get the money first. The trust has to flow from the user to PayPal, in the direction of the monetary flow.

Absolutely wrong. Trust must flow both ways. If paypal did not authenticate users, then it would be trivial for a fraudster to create a fictitious identity and "buy" some random EBay item. When paypal attempts to withdraw funds, it becomes clear that the fictitious entity is just that, and has no funds. Now the fraudster has the ebay item, and the seller has not received payment.
posted by b1tr0t at 2:55 PM PST on December 5

In my situation, Konolia, apparently so.

It's only available for purchase via "Buy it now." Clicking on that eventually takes you to PayPal. Working linearly through PayPal's setup procedure as presented soon left me hanging for 3 days waiting for a charge containing a confirmation number to show on my credit card's online statement.

I could not proceed until the confirmation number was entered from the credit card statement back into PayPal's website, so yes, it does seem that the credit card was a requirement for using PayPal.
posted by NortonDC at 3:04 PM PST on December 5

b1tr0t, I don't understand how that is so, since my money is transferred to PayPal before it flows to the recipient. If PayPal already has the money in hand, what need do they have of trust in the source of the money?

That's the stage I'm currently hung up on--PayPal won't let me give them money, despite having already confirmed the existence of one means of payment, my credit card. They are demanding that the money come from a bank account, which requires another round of confirmation gymnastics, which is very frustrating.
posted by NortonDC at 3:10 PM PST on December 5

First of all, NortonDC, you have my respect for holding out this long on getting a paypal account. While I have never had any problems with Paypal, I have a deep and constant hatred of that evil company. Paypal, truly, is the diabolic byproduct of an intimate, presumably drunken union between America's despicable banking industry and Satan. It is naturally an object of embarrassment for all parties involved, including itself, but none of their regrets can hold a candle to those of Paypal's membership.

Second, like so many have said above, "terrible use of AskMe."

Third, why not just use a credit card through Paypal to pay for it? When I broke down and registered with them, two and a half years ago, I got pissed off at the whole "look at your bank account to confirm" thing too. It was really annoying since I didn't even have a way to check that stuff online at the time, and my bills were sent to an address on the other side of the country. Then, I realized it didn't matter.

On principle (see above, union with Satan), I have never confirmed those mini transactions to become a 'verified' paypal member. Hell, I don't think I even have that bank account anymore. It limits some functions: I can only use it for $500 a month, and, it says I have a $2000 overall limit, but I've spent way more than that on Paypal stuff over the years so it must roll over sometime, and I don't think I can receive money from other people--but as you said, your goal is to get $$$ to a recipient, not the other way around. No confirmation necessary. The only penalty is that when you login to Paypal, it gives you a nag message.

On preview: how is it forcing you to wait? Are you sure there isn't anywhere you can click to "go to my account" or something of the ilk? The Paypal documentation, which I just checked, still says you aren't required to verify to use the service.
posted by jbrjake at 3:41 PM PST on December 5

What we have here is a failure to communicate.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:44 PM PST on December 5

I'm with you, NortonDC. Paypal blows: it has always blown, it blows now, and as far as I can tell, it will continue to blow. I, too, had the problems you describe: problems getting my account validated, problems adding a credit card, problems changing the address. Its integration with Ebay is a hindrance, not a help. I should not have shipping bullshit attached to my Paypal account. It should *not* take three days for money to be credited to my account. I should *not* have to sign up for a merchant account if I am paid for two items that total more than $500. It should *not* be more difficult to validate my password when I forget it than it is for my online banking—and lest you think I'm some kind of tard for not remembering my password, I'm not the kind of bozo who uses the exact same password for serious transactions, nor do I let the browser save it: I didn't know my password because I successfully avoided using Paypal for three years.
posted by Mo Nickels at 3:49 PM PST on December 5

The seller may not have a "merchant" account with PayPal, and is therefore unable to accept credit card transactions. Hence the need for all the bank-account business.
posted by neckro23 at 3:49 PM PST on December 5

Do you have to have a credit card in order to use paypal?

In order to transfer any more than $100, ever, from a Paypal account to anywhere but your own bank account, yes. And I don't have a credit card!

I only discovered the bank account loophole after literally months of head-scratching.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:54 PM PST on December 5

jbrjake, so far as I can tell, I really am hitting a brick wall here. It acknowledges I have a verified PayPal account. I try to pay for a purchase of about $150 and it stops me saying I can't because my PayPal account balance is $0. When in the next step I choose to increase the balance in my account to a value greater than $0, the only option it presents is an electronic funds transfer from a bank account. Then it forces me to go through the bank account verification process before beginning the process of giving PayPal money.

So now I'm on my second of three waiting periods in this process, this one waiting for PayPal to do it's part of the bank account verification dance.
posted by NortonDC at 4:17 PM PST on December 5

neckro23 -- The seller may not have a "merchant" account with PayPal, and is therefore unable to accept credit card transactions. Hence the need for all the bank-account business.

But doesn't the delivery of funds happen when PayPal moves money from my PayPal account to the recipient? Why would the recipient need to care what mechanism was used to get money into the PayPal account?

Clearly they can accept money from PayPal.
posted by NortonDC at 4:26 PM PST on December 5

There was an article somewhere, I have lost the link, where the PayPal execs essentially admitted that most of the customer service impediments stem from the incredibly high level of fraud (we are not talking fractions of a percent here) that they face. They are essentially trying to make fraud too difficult to pay and if in the process it makes regular business too difficult for some customers, tough. Without good competitors to PayPal this business model works. Since I do not need them, they will not get my money. When I give Matt money I use Amazon. I wish Amazon would expand their payment system to compete more directly with PayPal.
posted by caddis at 4:43 PM PST on December 5

I have had a PayPal account ever since they allowed people in the UK to sign up (about four years I think?) and have used it to transfer tens of thousands of dollars (spread over that timeframe). The only incident I had was when they turned off my account as they thought I was doing something shady.. a few faxes to them (sending personal data I really shouldn't have been sending, unfortunately) sorted it all out. There really is no other system I could use, unless my clients would all agree to wire me, and I don't think that's gunna happen.

Anyway, not sure it's going to be a big deal soon, with the US dollar turning into a worthless Mickey Mouse currency it'll be interesting to see if the US clients will stand the forthcoming rate hikes :-)
posted by wackybrit at 4:58 PM PST on December 5

Paypal rocks. I've used it for almost $20K worth of transactions over the last 3 years.

Expecting a service like paypal to work instantly upon first use is like expecting to write checks before going to a bank and opening a checking account.
posted by HyperBlue at 5:04 PM PST on December 5

Blame the seller, not PayPal, Norton. Neckro's right; I bet the seller signed up for only a personal account (which is free, and Paypal takes no fees for bank to Paypal to bank transactions). If the seller has a merchant account, the credit card option would be available, but Paypal takes a cut from credit card payments.

A friend of mine had this exact experience a couple weeks ago.
posted by gramcracker at 5:04 PM PST on December 5

gramcracker, I'm hoping you can explain something to me.

First I'll lay out my current understanding, and then ask the specific question I hope you can give me sight on. If any of my background/contextual understandings are wrong, please correct them.

1) PayPal balances represent money that has actually been transferred to PayPal, not money that resides with my bank (in this case) but that PayPal has been authorized to transfer at my direction.

2) Payment via PayPal means that money is transferred from my account at PayPal to somewhere else, whether that "somewhere else" be another PayPal account or some entirely separate money bin.

Given this context, how does the ability or inability of the recipient to deal with credit cards come into the picture at all? They're getting money from PayPal, not my credit card, and not my bank account.
posted by NortonDC at 5:39 PM PST on December 5

Go read the Paypal FAQ about account types.

If I'm selling widgets for $100, but I only have a personal account, I cannot accept credit card payments, that is, people cannot send money to Paypal with a credit card, and have that money go to me.

If I had a merchant account, that means I can accept credit card payments, and I've agreed contractually with Paypal that Paypal gets to take a percentage of what I charge, if paid for with a credit card.

Your seller obviously doesn't want to lose any money on the deal to Paypal, so he/she only has a personal account, and therefore Paypal doesn't give you the option to send him/her credit card money via Paypal.

I see your point about adding money in any form to credit your Paypal account, but I really think the limit this time has been imposed by your seller, not by Paypal.
posted by gramcracker at 5:49 PM PST on December 5

I think, in response to 2), the fees charged to Paypal are dramatically different. Paypal has to pay money to visa, or mastercard in order to take money of the card. Every merchant does. The fee to take a debit, off a debit card, is cheaper buyt still there. My guess is that a bank account to bank account transfer is cheaper than either of these.
posted by drezdn at 5:50 PM PST on December 5

It costs paypal more to take the money from your credit card than from your bank account. Usually the seller pays this cost, but since they're not willing to pay the fee, paypal is not willing to accept credit cards from them.
posted by drezdn at 5:52 PM PST on December 5

I work in banking. Let me tell you, PayPal is something I would say you should be more than extremely careful with.

1) PayPal is not a bank, yet it wishes to function like one. They offer "Money Market Accounts," yet they are not a registered bank, thrift or anything else.

2) This means they ARE NOT REQUIRED to comply with Federal regs designed to protect consumers and furthermore, DO NOT do so. This includes customer verification. If your bank decides they need you to prove your identity, there are set criteria you must fulfill. Also, in general, if they cannot prove you are up to something nefarious, a bank has to give your money to you if they don't want your business. PayPal doesn't have to do any of this. They can tie up your money with them for as bloody long as they please.

3) By giving them your account number and routing number, you are giving them permission to debit/credit your account for transactions and for "errors."

With all this in mind -- if you want to use PayPal, fine, but I would get a dinky bank account you don't plan to use to pay the rent and give them that account. And I wouldn't keep a lot of money with them.
posted by Medieval Maven at 5:53 PM PST on December 5

Tell the seller of this problem and tell them that you plan to send a Western Union money order via BidPay. This only costs $2.95 or something like that. (Assuming the seller is in the US--if they're not, you're going to have to figure out something else.)

I use PayPal all the time and don't have a problem with it. However, what MM said about not using your main bank account with it is key.
posted by Sidhedevil at 6:16 PM PST on December 5

Have you talked to Paypal's customer service? What was their response to your questions?
posted by Juicylicious at 6:18 PM PST on December 5

Personally, I would have gone for looseleaf spearmint and Debussey. Maybe a foot rub.
posted by DeepFriedTwinkies at 6:37 PM PST on December 5

It's sounding like the core of the immediate problem is that rather than letting me pay a higher fee to cover PayPal's increased costs in dealing with credit cards to add value to a PayPal account, they are imposing a mandatory 5-9 calendar day waiting period on me so they can use a bank transfer instead of a credit card. Thanks a fucking lot, PayPal. Yeah, being forced to wait a week and a half is much better than deciding whether or not to pay a few percent more.
posted by NortonDC at 6:42 PM PST on December 5

Zombie AskMe

12518